Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: Is the tribulation now? Daniel's 70 weeks
OK - I am NOT advocating these 2 videos made
(FWIW, I myself believe parts of Daniel/Rev have already been fulfilled, with more parts to come in the end times).
I believe we are now in the tribulation.
I believe the 4 horsemen have been riding for years .. and they now ride faster.
The door was closed to America's repentance.
The door is never closed on the individual until Death.
.
Last edited by CJ on Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:29 am; edited 1 time in total
I believe the 4 horsemen have been riding for years ..
and they now ride faster.
The door was closed to America's repentance.
The door is never closed on the individual until Death.
.
If anything this video DOES have decent points - I've been thinking about that 7 year treaty b/w Israel and the EU that Solana brokered. I don't think Solana is the guy, but nonetheless I remember this making big headline news in summer 2006(and then officially went into effect in 1/1/2007).
And yes, while we can't be date setters, Jesus said to be watchful and pray always(contrary to the Apostate church nowdays that ONLY looks at the "noone knows but my Father in heaven" verse, and says how trying to do more than this only hurts our witness, and how it'll be a big surprise when Jesus comes back).
Again - I'm not advocating anything these videos say, but nonetheless, when you look at how close we are, events that are slowly but surely unfolding(i.e. 3rd Temple set to be built by this year), et al, it's no coincidence that the timetables in this video are pretty darn close.
I was able to tolerate the first short video, but had to turn off the second one within only one or two minutes. I would really like to give my true opinion, but most people would find it offensive without me also giving pages of biblical teaching first as a foundation, explaining my words. And I find that most people won't read my long explanations. LOL!
I hit the stop button the moment they started misquoting scripture. They claimed Daniel 9:27 stated "the European Antichrist will confirm a covenant ....".
They are teaching the traditions of men and not the word of God. This is what the King James translation actually states:
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I have to admit that the last four versus in Daniel Chapter 9 can be very difficult to understand without the help of the Holy Spirit. It took me a couple of decades praying to the Lord before my understanding was opened. One key is that you need to look at the whole chapter in context, and not just the last four versus.
I will not burden you and CJ with a long teaching. But here are a few thoughts to ponder.
1. The religious leaders of the first century had far greater expertise in Hebrew and understanding the Scriptures and culture than the religious leaders of today. And yet none of them recognized the Messiah. The exception being Simeon and the widow in the temple were able to recognize him when he was only eight days old.
2. There are no gaps. When God says that something will occur after 70 "sevens", the Father does not mean that there will be 69 consecutive "sevens", then a long and indeterminate time before the last "seven." What type of father would tell their child that they would take them to Disneyland in seven days, and after one week try to explain to the child that there is an extended "gap" between the sixth and seventh day. That's the type of thing that false prophets use to explain their lies.
3. It is written that the truth is only determined after at least two or three witnesses. This is also true with the Scriptures. Daniel Chapter 9 is used as the "proof text" for the theory of a seven-year tribulation. You will find nowhere in Scripture a "second witness" to this theory. Which means that "the great tribulation" may or may not be seven years long.
4. And the hardest and most important thing you need to determine, if you want to understand Daniel 9:27, is the identity of "he" in this verse.
And yes, things are "pretty darn close." Extremely close.
Shalom, John
PS: I understand that you are not advocating these videos. The actual hallmark of our time is the abundance of "deception." And all deceptions need to be exposed for what they are.
TRUEMAN - FWIW, yes, Daniel's 70th week has already fulfilled, I completely agree - even our early bible scholars have said the same thing. I've been reading the Matthew Henry commentary for the last couple of months, and even he said that in Daniel's 70th week, the Jewish Nation was destroyed by the Roman Army, a consequence for their disobedience.
And as for Daniel/Revelation - it took me awhile, and the Holy Spirit has guided me the way - PARTS of this book, but NOT all, have been fulfilled. The early seals were the spreading of the gospel to all nations(this being the 1st seal), the 7 trumpets being the rise of the 1st beast(the 5th trumpet to be precise, and the 1st beast's rule was 1260 years). The false prophet passage, which followed after the 1st beast, is currently being fulfilled(it's late, I will go into this when I get some more energy tomorrow). And pretty much the final 7 plagues are fulfilled when Jesus comes back to judge the earth.
Overall - it's part Preterist/part Futurist. Don't let the Preterist parts fool anyone into thinking the 1260 years of the 1st beast's reign, for example is just merely 'historical', b/c while the Protestant Reformation eventually through the Lord Jesus Christ defeated that 1260 year reign of the first beast, the RCC nonetheless got relocked and reloaded(via the false prophet, and the re-rise of the Vatican in 1929).
Anyhow - I'll explain more later when I gather some more energy, but nonetheless, these are my views, which I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for giving me wisdom for.
My point over these videos is that they had a few points that I found interesting. No, like we said, there's no "7 year tribulation", but nonetheless, the guy in the video was correct that we have to PRAY and to be WATCHFUL. Today's Apostate church will just use the "noone knows but thy Father in heaven" verse, and act like it will just merely be a surprise when he comes back, while ignoring everything else Matthew 24 said(i.e. going from bad to worse).
Edit: I agree that we have to be VERY discerning in these times - but at the same time, there are some sources, let's say, like Alex Jones, that may be Apostate in nature, but our decent sources when it comes to topics like the NWO(i.e. Jones has numerous gifted in-depth writers on his infowars site - outside of that, I stay away from his radio program).
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: Daniel 9:27
Daniel 9:24-26
Seventy sevens are decreed for your people and your holy city to finishd transgression, to put an end to sin,
to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
Know and understand this
From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes,
there will be seven sevens, and sixty-two sevens.
It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.
The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed
King James Bible
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
New American Standard Bible
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,
but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering;
and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate,
even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
New International Version
He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'
In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
New Living Translation
The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven,
but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings.
And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration,
until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."
GOD'S WORD Translation
He will confirm his promise with many for one set of seven time periods.
In the middle of the seven time periods, he will stop the sacrifices and food offerings.
This will happen along with disgusting things that cause destruction until [those time periods] come to an end.
It has been determined that this will happen to those who destroy [the city]."
Geneva Study Bible
And he {a} shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to {b} cease, {c} and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.
(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.
(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.
Wesley's Notes
9:27 He shall confirm - Christ confirmed the new covenant, By the testimony of angels, of John baptist, of the wise men, of the saints then living, of Moses and Elias. By his preaching. By signs and wonders. By his holy life. By his resurrection and ascension. By his death and blood shedding. Shall cause the sacrifice to cease - All the Jewish rites, and Levitical worship. By his death he abrogated, and put an end to this laborious service, for ever. And that determined - That spirit of slumber, which God has determined to pour on the desolate nation, 'till the time draws near, when all Israel shall be saved.
King James Translators' Notes
the covenant: or, a covenant
for the...: or, with the abominable armies
the desolate: or, the desolator
Scofield Reference Notes
[3] abominations
(Cf) Mt 24:15. The expression occurs three times in Daniel. In Dan 9:27 12:11 the reference is to the "Beast," "man of sin"; 2Th 2:3,4 and is identical with Mt 24:15. In Dan 11:31 the reference is to the act of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prototype of the man of sin, who sacrificed a sow upon the altar, and entered the holy of holies.
`
Last edited by CJ on Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:17 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:16 am Post subject: My view - rapture, tribulation, 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse
O goodie! A fight! And 2 such worthy opponents!
The Temple matierials for building it and for operating it are ALL ready, some have been ready for years.
It can be built very fast. Jews are already performing animal sacrifice at Passover (NOT 'EASTER')
It is an abomination to GOD! Yeshua ha Machiach - Jesus the Christ was the Passover Lamb slain for all Time.
----------------------------------------
Will this occur? Or was it already fulfilled?
I will let GOD be GOD and let prophecy fulfill itself - His way, not lock Him in.
0bama - or his successor - will stand there and declare himself god.
0bama already believes his is messiah.
I believe 0bama is too dumb, but Satan will enter into (whoever), after he is wounded unto death but returns.
----------------------------------------
I do not believe in a typical 7 year tribulation
I believe it began several years ago. In my mind, 1999 - but I cant support that.
It is as if I have heard the hoofbeats of the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse since then.
They ride faster and faster. God called me to the internet in 1998 - BEFORE I had a computer!
BA - False prophets are followed because they are CLOSE to the Truth.
Truman - Your point 2 is interesting
I dont like KJV, so I copy-pasted several versions here, plus commentaries. Hebrew is more complex than any of our translations can capture.
KJV is just plain WRONG sometimes, and it has ADDED some verses. The pilgrims brought over the Geneva bible.
They are teaching the traditions of men and not the word of God.
Yes, and I no longer listen to man. There is simply too much Deception, it is rampant.
I listen to as much of Alex Jones as I can. It is not his PURPOSE to preach - but to EXPOSE Darkness, which he does - very well.
You can listen free 24/7 on His website, click LISTEN on the upper right corner - http://www.prisonplanet.com
I believe that the book of Daniel, and especially Chapter 9, demonstrates that the timing of some prophecies can be determined before hand. It is possible to "time" a prophecy precisely. Daniel states as much in the second verse:
Dan 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
Daniel, probably the highest authority of Judah in God's eyes (similar to Joseph in Egypt), confesses his people's sin and repents.
That is the focus of the entire ninth chapter.
Because Daniel has repented for Judah's past behavior, God dispatches Gabriel to give Daniel further understanding along with the answer to Daniel's prayers.
The "70 weeks" prophecy of Daniel is entirely about the work of the Messiah's first coming. But it also states that there will be more "desolation's" following.
Daniel 9:24 through Daniel 9:27 was completed in the first century exactly as prophesied. The "70 weeks" most likely ended 3 1/2 years after the resurrection.
I believe (though I could be wrong), that it ended at the stoning of Stephen.
By the next morning the apostles were in hiding and almost all of the Christians went into dispersion.
The time of Judah was ending and the time of the Gentiles were just beginning. (The Gospel is to go to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. God's pattern.).
But we must also always remember that the Father is far more complex than we usually imagine.
Prophecies and their fulfillment shows us how the Father thinks and judges. These give us "patterns."
And many of these patterns are repeated and also may be copied by our adversaries.
The seven churches in Revelation Chapter 2 and 3 are excellent examples of these "patterns."
All seven churches existed as stated during the first century, each containing a specific character as stated in those verses.
But you can also look at church history and recognize the church has progressed/deteriorated along that same sequence of patterns/churches.
And in these end times, if we travel the world I'm sure that we could locate an example of modern-day churches that match each pattern of the seven churches in the first century.
A single prophetic pattern is being repeated in three different ways simultaneously.
It is ridiculous to separate ourselves into different groups and declare that our "way" is the only way to interpret eschatology.
Who knows? The Father may be displaying this same pattern in ways we have yet to recognize.
Another excellent example would be Daniel chapter 8 and Alexander the great. "Scholars/experts" have always interpreted the "he goat" representing Grecia as Alexander.
And he certainly fits the "pattern." But Alexander is not the fulfillment of this prophecy in its entirety. He cannot be. Because Gabriel tells us exactly in what era this occurs.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end [shall be] the vision.
Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be].
Alexander fulfilled many, but not all aspects of this prophecy prior to the first coming of Messiah. The second coming of Messiah will be "at the time appointed the end."
Dan 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: ... .
Alexander came with ground troops from the West where as George W. came by sea and air. We see the same pattern (mind of God) , but only one fits precisely.
My final example will be three prophecies that look identical but speaks of two different times/fulfillments.
Matthew 24:15 - 22 and Mark 13:14 - 20 are pretty much identical.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Matthew and Mark speak of sudden destruction when you haven't enough time to even grab your coat.
This occurs when you "see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not."
And this will be the "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time."
"And except those days be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:" This has yet to occur - future.
But Luke 21:20 - 24 gives the same basic pattern, but it's fulfillment is of a different time.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luke also tells those in Judaea to flee to the mountains when they see Jerusalem surrounded with armies. He also speaks of "desolation" but does not connect it with Daniel's prophecy. This speaks of death and captivity, but not to th point where without God's intervention, no one would survive.
In 69A.D the Roman soldiers surrounded Jerusalem and the Christians, remembering Jesus words, immediately fled to the mountains expecting sudden destruction. It didn't come. The Roman army backed off, but returned and fulfilled Luke 21:20 - 24 a year later. I wonder how many "Christians" lost faith and returned to Jerusalem.
Even though Daniel chapter 9 has been completely fulfilled as prophesied, that does not preclude the Father from repeating this pattern. But more likely we may see this pattern copied in parts by those trying to deceive. And this script may take more of a pattern from the book of LaHaye or book of Lindsay. This may even deceive the elect.
The more I study, the more flexible I have become with my eschatology.
Shalom, John
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