Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: IS HELL REAL? Are we Saved merely by Believing?
Are we Saved merely by Believing?
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Frequently the problem we have understanding the Scriptures lies with our dependence upon our own cultural understanding of words that have been translated at least once, into our own language (knowledge of good and evil). We then take these literal words and try to boil them down into a simplified concept. Disagreement occurs especially when there are multiple definitions of each word in both the original text and the translation. And how accurate can our "simplified concept" be when trying to explain such a complex Creator?
In westernized English, our concept of "believe" deals more with the intellect or acknowledgment of facts.
Webster's Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: be•lieve
intransitive verb
1 a : to have a firm religious faith b : to accept as true, genuine, or real <ideals we believe in> <believes in ghosts>
2 : to have a firm conviction as to the goodness, efficacy, or ability of something <believe in exercise>
3 : to hold an opinion : think = I believe so
transitive verb
1 a : to consider to be true or honest <believe the reports> <you wouldn't believe how long it took> b : to accept the word or evidence of < I believe you> <couldn't believe my ears>
2 : to hold as an opinion : suppose < I believe it will rain soon>
Where Strong's has multiple definitions for the word translated "believe" which includes the intellect but may also mean "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul."
Strong's G4100 - pisteuō
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, [color=blue]place confidence in
a) of the thing believed
1) to credit, have confidence
b) in a moral or religious reference
1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
a) to be intrusted with a thing[/color]
We now have the problem that each person chooses whichever definition that fits their personal "simplified concepts." And it is impossible to determine through these means which one is really the "mind of God" in this matter.
Seeing that "God never changes," and He is the same yesterday, today and forever; we may want to look at the patterns that have been given to us throughout the ages in the Scriptures.
I think we must first recognize that the word "believe" in relationship to salvation, has to be much more than a mere intellectual acknowledgment of Yeshua/Jesus historical life. Does anyone believe that the devils will be saved?
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
And will not everyone "believe" in the Messiah at the white throne judgment?
Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
When I think of "salvation" I always think of the example of the children of Israel in Egypt. The "firstborns" were "saved" (continued life) from the death angel by the people obediently applying the blood of the lamb on their door posts of their dwellings. (Passover - The crucifixion of Christ). The descendents of Jacob/Israel, along with a mixed multitude, "believed" in this God that brought judgment upon Egypt (world). God wanted them to come worship him in the wilderness, and he would give them a land flowing with milk and honey (their salvation - promised land).
I'm sure that there were those who could testify that these facts were true (intellectually believe), but remained in Egypt and therefore were ineligible for the promised "salvation." Action was required.
Moses brought them to the Red Sea. And God hardened Pharaoh's heart which resulted in Pharaoh's army preventing any retreat of these "believers." God gave them very little choice in passing through the waters (baptism in water) which became a final separation between them and Egypt (world).
Moses brought them to the mountain where he first encountered God. And on the day of Pentecost, Moses presented the Law. God spoke the Law to the people (wanting to write His Law (character) on their heart), but the people were fearful and preferred to be led by Moses (a man) instead of God. So God postponed writing his Law on their hearts (Pentecost), and wrote the Law on stone and initiated plan B. A short time later the people were fearful again and chose not to enter the promised land (salvation) at that time. Only Joshua and Caleb "believed" that God was able to fulfill His promise. This resulted in a total of 40 years that God provided for these people in the wilderness with food, clothing, heat and covering , who initially believed and yet had doubts, . Out of a number of people estimated well over 1.5 million, only three are recorded to have made it over the Jordan River and into the salvation of the promised land. (Stay with me here. LOL). And even though Joshua and Caleb believed in their heart (first Pentecostal's) they had to remain with "the called out one's" (church) 40 years before they were able to enter the promise (salvation).
God raised Moses to be the one to shepherd the people from Egypt (world) into the promised land (their salvation). This was the entire purpose of his life. You can imagine how hurt and disappointed he was when God would not allow him to lead the people across the Jordan due to his very small act of disobedience. He struck the rock with his staff, as he did once before, when God specifically told him to "speak to the rock." It appears that this may have been out of frustration with the people that God had given him. It's hard to fault him. But as it is written, "To whom much is given, much is required."
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I'm sure that this would have been overlooked if it had been a younger believer. But God the Father has no problem delivering correction to his children. There are no bastards (fatherless) in the house of God. We often forget that when the Lord returns he will bring both rewards and punishments, even to his servants (believers).
Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].
Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
As you can see, there's probably much more to the concept of salvation and believing than what's presently preached in the Western Church. Our perspective is that of a created being who was born and most probably will eventually die. Our Creator is eternal and his thoughts and concepts are not our common thoughts or concepts. Our loving father did eventually allow Moses to cross the Jordan River into the promised land.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
.
There is too much 'easy believism' today ..
where you are saved from hell by going to Haiti with a bag of rice.
There appears almost NO call today to HOLINESS.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for unbelievers and the wicked after they die.
Matthew 25
No wonder Jesus said FEW will be in heaven -
MOST will be in hell. Once dead - thats it. NO 2nd chance, NO purgatory.
The unbeliever and those who choose sin will burn. forever.
The very moment of death, the unbelievers are CONCIOUSLY in flames and torment and will be FOREVER.
They are CONCIOUS.
That horrible fate was only intended for satan and his fallen angels - demons - but if people choose to follow satan they will be in hell - CONCIOUS.
Argue all you want. I believe Jesus.
Yeshua Jesus the Christ of GOD told about the rich man in hell and torment and crying out in pain. That is NOT a parable.
Luke 16 Rich Man and Lazarus
Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury.
At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores.
As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.
Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.
The rich man also died and was buried, and his soul went to the place of the dead.
There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side.
The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue.
I am in anguish in these flames.’
But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing.
So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish.
And besides, there is a great chasm separating us.
No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home.
For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’
But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”
JESUS CHRIST ROSE FROM THE DEAD - AND THEY STILL WONT BELIEVE!
Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:11 am Post subject: IS HELL REAL?
IS HELL REAL?
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice,
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger;
and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;
they have no rest day and night,
those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Read also Revelaton 13 and Revelation 14
Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if, with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea.
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED
If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be
cast into hell, where
THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.
If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be
cast into
hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED
All mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the LORD.
Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind. Isaiah 66:24
http://nasb.scripturetext.com/isaiah/66.htm
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened,
which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades (or hell) were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20
http://nasb.scripturetext.com/revelation/20.htm
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars,
their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. Revelation 21:8
http://nasb.scripturetext.com/revelation/21.htm
People do NOT see the BALANCE, and ultimately, they seem to forget that
FIRST AND FOREMOST we have to REPENT of our sins - to the Lord, not a man
and then walk in FAITH in Jesus Christ as we're saved by grace through faith.
There's some that say, "Now that we're saved, we're *free* to do all that we want, as we now have a free ticket to heaven". NO!
There's some that say, "I have to continue to WORK for my salvation b/c repenting was only the start, there's a long way to go, blah, blah, blah".
And there's some that will preach the love of God, but do NOT say ANYTHING about repentence.(i.e. this is the big problem with the modern day church now)
And it doesn't help too that alot of our mainstream evangelicals like Graham and Warren avoid this.
And if anyone takes the mark of the beast in the tribulation, they are damned.
Posted by BornAgain2 on Feb. 3, 2010
I tweeked 2 threads
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