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Are CARNAL CHRISTIANS Saved ?
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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Are CARNAL CHRISTIANS Saved ?  Reply with quote




Are CARNAL CHRISTIANS Saved ?

The following quote from Leonard Ravenhill caused the biggest
reaction yet on our Facebook page.
Here is the quote and a few replies to kick things off!-

The QUOTE:

Get rid of this bunkum about the ‘carnal Christian’. Forget it!
If you’re carnal, you’re not saved
.
– Leonard Ravenhill.

I AGREE!
ONLY SAVED or LOST



Some REPLIES:

A.M – “Well the Bible is white and black, there is no gray, either
you’re with Christ or you are against Him.
“He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather
with me, scatters.”"

R.B – “I have enjoyed reading through all the comments regarding
this qoute. In my opinion, I feel that the meaning of this qoute is refing to those who habitually live in carnality.
I think that every Christian falls into carnallity from time to time, does that make them “unsaved”? I don’t think so.”

L.C – “Well I don’t agree on this one!  The Bible speaks of carnal “Christians”!
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-3 Paul is speaking to the Corinthian BELIEVERS when he tells them he couldn’t speak to them as spiritual (one governed by the Spirit) but as carnal, mereinfants in Christ.”

A.M – “If you read 1 corinthians Paul is rebuking them for
being carnal, not condoning it.”

Olive Branch – “Without the phrase (‘Carnal Christian’) many so
called Christians have no way of justifying their sin.”


  1.      lois taritas May 5th 2010
     CONCEPCION, Chile = Conception: Origin-BEGINNING of something IN the MIND
     (Romans 8:6) We are transformed by the renewing of our MIND.

     News Headlines: “Chile quake shakes the city of Concepcion at least 10 feet (3meters)”
     = the beginning of moving our mind from our deception of the written Book of Law = 10 commands interpreted in the flesh-carnal understanding that is wicked & deceived of the opposite ways of the divine spirit; to raise up our mind-our understanding to the Living word of God = Spirit of God, to the kingdom of God = Birthing us into the Spirit. Birthing the Spirit of the Living God in the earth, our mind. Leaving the “land”= flesh, the old way of worship of images & symbols, to operate & think & worship God who is Spirit in spirit of the Truth.

  2.      Terry Aima May 5th 2010
     All Christians are carnal until they allow the Holy Spirit to do a mighty work in them. Christians can choose to limit His work and remain carnal or they can cooperate with Him and become more like Jesus. Ravenhill’s comment served only to hurt those who do not have an understanding of the process of maturing.

  3.      Mary Ditmars May 5th 2010
     I think what Ravenhill is referring to is the excuse that is used to pretend that someone is saved even though they live a life of sin. Instead of saying that they were never really converted, people call them carnal Christians.

     According to 1 Corinthians, a carnal Christian is someone who relies on worldly wisdom and operates in that. Paul does not condone that behavior but is reprimanding and warning the Corinthians that sort of behavior does not go unpunished. Paul then goes on to address the immorality in the congregation and demands that the man sleeping with his father’s wife be thrown out–handed over to Satan.

     Even though there is a reference to the Corinthians as being carnal, infants in Christ, there is also scripture in 1 John 3:6 which says: “No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”

     If someone continues to deliberately live a life of sin, how could that person possibly have been truly converted? How could they have received an infilling of the Holy Spirit and then spat on Him? No, no. Calling oneself carnal is just an excuse. The truly infantile in Christ don’t realize their behavior – but they are willing to be changed by the power of the Holy Spirit and by self-determination and discipline.

  4.      Tom Briggs aka Overboard May 5th 2010
     ONly two kinds of people: 1) those dead in sins or 2) those dead to sin
     ~Leonard Ravenhill~

  5.      Catherine May 5th 2010
     Of course every Christian can sin but it is a question of the heart. If I love my sin, if I like to continue in my sin or if I repent and hate sin, it’s a difference.
As more time you spend with Jesus, as more you know Him, you hate to do things, that he doesn’t like.

  6.      DeWayne May 5th 2010
     When a difficult question like that is asked, my first impulse is to recall my own experience when the Lord came into my life as Lord and Savior.
     What a carnal man Christ took on, saying through His servants that I would work out my salvation, certainly one of many way by the renewing of my mind.
     So many things I have learned since then in the word, yet how miserable my very soul aches when I stumble, and the same of falling and having to be lifted up again.
     I take carnal of hardened heart however only to be possible like the seed on rocky and hardened ground, and when standing before Christ hearing, begone I never knew you, you worker of iniquity.

  7.      Ariel May 5th 2010
     I do not agree with the position of Mr. Ravenhill. Did the adulterous man of 1 Corinthians 5 was saved or lost? What does Paul meant in 1 Corinthias 11:27-32? Even when the christian is carnal he is still a son/daugther, therefore, save. Glory to God for his GRACE.

  8.      anthony May 5th 2010
     We are all a work in progress.There is also a battle going on in every believers life.Except by the Blood of Jesus Christ non of us would survive to see heaven.
     I have wept over things in my life and have wept with others as they also cling on.I guess it’s good to be radical but let’s be realistic.Pray the Lord will help us all to hate our sin so much that we are able to move on in victory

  9.      Kathi Rose May 5th 2010
     If the singular objective of our faith is to be transformed into the image of Jesus Christ (and I believe that is the objective) then anything that flows from us that is Godly should be flowing from that transformation. There is a reason Paul tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling – it is because this journey of transformation is fraught with opportunity to fall back into the carnal man’s way of thinking and, subsequently, leading his life. But the key is that Paul also speaks “I’m confident of this very thing – that He (the Holy Spirit who regenerates) who began a good work in you will perfect (mature) it until the day of Jesus Christ.” In other words, though completed in the spirit world, it is a process that must be worked through in the natural – a process that WILL NOT be completed until we see Jesus Christ face to face.

     I take exception to Leonard Ravenhill’s statement – it does not line up with Paul’s encouragement to diligently keep on working out our salvation, nor does it allow for the fact that we are never going to come into full transformation until we see Christ at the Resurrection or Rapture.

     While I think the church has, indeed, gotten sloppy and apathetic about its walk with the Lord, to take the opposite tact and bring condemnation on those who are still “learning” to walk by the spirit is also in defiance of the Scripture, “there is therefore no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus”

     The church does, indeed, need to grow up, and grow up quickly for these last days, but placing this kind of yoke on the backs of the people will not guide them, it will defeat them. It is that very sense of “legalism” that drives people away from Christ, not to Him.

 10.      John Painter May 5th 2010
     It’s a little risky, judging another’s salvation [Mat. 7:1]. As for me, I will await the time specified [1 Cor. 4:5].

If Jesus is with us, where do we take Him?


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yahshua or Yeshua = the Lord Jesus Christ
Yahweh  =  GOD, Jehovah,  YHVH



11.      Laura May 5th 2010
     Notice In Corinthians Paul does call them Mere Infant “IN CHRIST” they are immature not Condemned to hell or unsaved but still needing Milk.

 12.      Joseph F Dumond May 5th 2010
     1 John 3:4 Sin is the transgression of the law.
http://bible.cc/1_john/1-9.htm

     Most Christians well profess they agree with this. But almost all christians will find any excuse at all not to obey the law, that is the Great Law Yahshua told you to keep.
To Love Yahweh with all your heart soul and mind, which incorporates the first four commandments. The second is like it and is to love your neighbour as yourself. This is the last six commandments.

     So Yahshua said to keep the ten commandments as we have just shown you, most christians will not keep them. Sin is the transgression of the law. Most Christians are sinning continuously.

     We are to put on righteousness which is told to us in Psalm 119:172 that all your commandments are righteousness.

     Sort results by: Book of the Bible | Most relevant search result
     Exodus 20:1 NIV
     [The Ten Commandments] [20:1-17pp -- Dt 5:6-21] And God spoke all these words:

http://bible.cc/exodus/20-1.htm

     Read Exodus 20 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Exodus 20:6 NIV
     but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
     Read Exodus 20 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Exodus 34:28 NIV
     Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant–the Ten Commandments.
     Read Exodus 34 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Deuteronomy 4:13 NIV
     He declared to you his covenant, the Ten Commandments, which he commanded you to follow and then wrote them on two stone tablets.
     Read Deuteronomy 4 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Deuteronomy 5:1 NIV
     [The Ten Commandments] [5:6-21pp -- Ex 20:1-17] Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them.
     Read Deuteronomy 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Deuteronomy 5:10 NIV
     but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
     Read Deuteronomy 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Deuteronomy 5:22 NIV
     These are the commandments the LORD proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
     Read Deuteronomy 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Deuteronomy 6:6 NIV
     These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.
     Read Deuteronomy 6 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Deuteronomy 9:10 NIV
     The LORD gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.
     Read Deuteronomy 9 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Deuteronomy 10:4 NIV
     The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me.
     Read Deuteronomy 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Ecclesiastes 12:13 NIV
     Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole [duty] of man.
     Read Ecclesiastes 12 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

http://bible.cc/matthew/5-19.htm

     Matthew 5:19 NIV
     Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
     Read Matthew 5 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Matthew 19:17 NIV
     “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
     Read Matthew 19 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Matthew 22:40 NIV
     All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
     Read Matthew 22 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Mark 10:19 NIV
     You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ ”
     Read Mark 10 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Mark 12:28 NIV
     [The Greatest Commandment] [12:28-34pp -- Mt 22:34-40] One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
     Read Mark 12 | View in parallel | Compare Translations

     Luke 1:6 NIV
     Both of them were upright in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commandments and regulations blamelessly.
     Read Luke 1 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Luke 18:20 NIV
     You know the commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’ ”
     Read Luke 18 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
http://niv.scripturetext.com/luke/18.htm

     Romans 13:9 NIV
     The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
     Read Romans 13 | View in parallel | Compare Translations
     Ephesians 2:15 NIV
     by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

     Matthew 5:19
     Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

     Matthew 15:9
     And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

     Matthew 19:17
     “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”

     John 14:15
     “If you love Me, keep My commandments.

     John 14:21
     He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

     John 15:10
     If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love

     1 John 2:3
     Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

     1 John 2:4
     He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

     1 John 3:22
     And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.


http://bible.cc/revelation/12-17.htm

     Revelation 12:17
     Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

     Revelation 14:12
     This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

     As you can plainly read you must be keeping the commandments to show you love Yahshua. If you do nto then you do not love Him and you are in fact a liar. Those are His words. Read them again.

     Most christians will not keep the commandments.

 13.      John May 5th 2010

     Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved.

     As another poster mentioned, it’s quite possible to be a carnal Christian, based on scripture those who align with men and not Christ are carnal, not useful to the Kingdom, mere babes. I have lost friendships, relationships because I would not be loyal to a particular teacher or his teachings, were the firm followers of Apollos unsaved? No, just babes. Are you loyal to teachers? Mere men?

     Jesus Christ willingly laid down on a wooden cross, had nails pounded through his hands and feet, suffered horribly and unjustly so we could saved. I think those that seek to determine who is saved and who isn’t have a limited understanding of grace and certainly aren’t walking in the fullness of love that Christ extends to us, no matter our condition.

     Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ye shall be saved; that’s just too much for the religious mind to fathom.

     1 Corinthians 3 1-4: Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere men?

http://www.johnthebaptisttv.com/2...05/carnal-christians-saved-or-not

.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me.

Matt. 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

I Cor. 3

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.l

4 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Yes, there are "carnal" Christians.  Differing levels of spiritual growth.
Ex: The thief on the cross with Jesus.  Last minute of life he was saved, but certainly had no qualifying "works."  God knows the hearts of man, who is sincere and who is not.

There are also "deceivers," who profess to be Christian, but are not truly saved, not born again in Christ through the Holy Spirit.
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BornAgain2



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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Observer wrote:
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me.

Matt. 13:23
But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.

I Cor. 3
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.l

4 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Yes, there are "carnal" Christians.  Differing levels of spiritual growth.
Ex: The thief on the cross with Jesus.  Last minute of life he was saved, but certainly had no qualifying "works."  God knows the hearts of man, who is sincere and who is not.

There are also "deceivers," who profess to be Christian, but are not truly saved, not born again in Christ through the Holy Spirit.


Yep - this isn't one of those "yes it's true" or "no it's not true", there's some grey areas inside, as we really don't know the hearts of people. This is also something where many pastors et al will be criticized as "Calvanists" if they say how carnal Christians are saved, how you can never lose your salvation, etc - for example Charles Stanley is criticized for so on numerous blogs.

Quote:
Matthew 13:15 (King James Version)

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Personally, I got saved in 2006, but since then, I am STILL slowly but surely un-learning some behaviors and thought-like patterns that are un-Christ-like. For the most part, b/c I've been stubborn, not willing to listen, wanting to follow my own way, etc. But when I've put aside my stubbornness and started willing to listen to what more of the Word has said, the Lord has guided me through in un-learning some of my bad patterns.

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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus Christ will sort the sheep from the goats.
I think thats one of the many interpretations of the wheat field dream.

Some are clearly heading to hell in a hurry.
Others - only GOD knows.

I see those calling themself 'christian' who I have a hard time believing are christian.


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PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2010 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CJ wrote:
Jesus Christ will sort the sheep from the goats.
I think thats one of the many interpretations of the wheat field dream.

Some are clearly heading to hell in a hurry.

Others - only GOD knows.

I see those calling themself chrisitan who I have a hard time believing are christian.

.



Godly wisdom is needed in discerning God's truths in teachings, but never condemn a person.

Christians who haven't gotten out of particular areas of sin, some of which may take years, need mercy and compassion and again, certainly not condemnation.

All need our prayers.

The true Christian who has reached a level of spiritual maturity will manifest God's love to all.  No conditions.
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TRUEMAN



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judgment

[size=18]1 Corinthians 5
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Repentance/Restoration  (Note REPENTANCE FIRST, restore after

2 Cor 2
And I wrote this same unto you, lest, when I came, I should have sorrow from them of whom I ought to rejoice; having confidence in you all, that my joy is [the joy] of you all.

For out of much affliction and anguish of heart I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you.

But if any have caused grief, he hath not grieved me, but in part: that I may not overcharge you all.

Sufficient to such a man [is] this punishment, which [was inflicted] of many.

So that contrariwise ye [ought] rather to forgive [him], and comfort [him], lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.

Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm [your] love toward him.

For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

To whom ye forgive any thing, I [forgive] also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave [it], for your sakes [forgave I it] in the person of Christ;

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
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BornAgain2



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PostPosted: Wed May 05, 2010 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Book of Galatians warns quite a bit over those who will try to bring you back into bondage by deceiving you into thinking a WORKS-based salvation is the way.
In Paul's words, "ye have fallen from grace" will ultimately happen.

This is exactly what Rick Warren and the PDM is trying to do - preaching a deeds-based salvation(and saying how the "belief" way is wrong) to their flock.
He even admitted on Charlie Rose a few years ago over how he doesn't care if Muslims and homosexuals convert, just as long as they can work together with him.


TRUEMAN wrote:
[1Cr 5:9   ¶   I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:


And this itself is a very serious sin - no, not trying to say how other sins are nothing compared to this one(sin is sin, period), however,
Paul said that if you commit fornication you sin AGAINST your OWN body, which is the holy temple of God, b/c you just joined in one with a harlot.

No, not saying that God can't forgive you if you've done so in your lifetime, but fornication can potentially invite many demons inside your body
(i.e. the partner who fornicated with could very well have plenty of demons in her body from all the times she fornicated).


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 Peter 1:15-16
Just as He Who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, in ALL manner of conversation, lifestyle, Because it is written
,
BE YE HOLY!  FOR I AM HOLY!


ALL good points.  Smile

One can take one scripture to argue against another scripture.

We need a strong working knowledge of the entirely of God's Word in both old and new testaments.

We need a strong, deep intimacy with the Lord Jesus Christ and knowledge of the nature of the Almighty.

We make allowances for a person who has just found Christ.

However, for those who have claimed salvation for years, these need to be living HOLY - not living in sin.

You can use the excuse 'carnal' is in the bible.  BUT PAUL CONDEMNED IT!

We can be forgiven upon REPENTANCE - turning AWAY from the sin.

If we confess our sins,
he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins
and purify us from ALL unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

I am concerned many 'christians' are being told they can sin - INTENTIONALLY and knowingly day after day.
They will end up in HELL and it will be the preachers of cheap Grace.

Is that love?  I say  NO!
.



Last edited by CJ on Sat May 14, 2011 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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